This is a question that comes up in my head sometimes….I know I’m weird. But I’m basically encouraging a patriarchal philosophy onto my readers and I have to ask myself what the end result would be and if that is a good thing. I think we can all accept the idea Christian women should submit to Christian men, God gives us a safeguard by saying they have to love us back and they have to be like Christ, so if they do their part then we should be safe and secure. God even goes so far as to say women should submit to non-Christian husbands in an effort to help them find salvation.
A bigger question to ask though is what does God say about men who aren’t Christians or our husbands? Are we to submit to them also? How many people get to boss us around and decide what’s good for us? How far-reaching does this submission thing go for women? Does the model for marriage work for society also? Are our Christian husbands and fathers responsible for protecting us from society if we are weakened?
Also, women have fears about patriarchal societies that are well justified. Acid throwings at young women just because they feel rejected or insulted by them. Genital mutilation to “protect” women from their urges and to keep them pure for marriage? Arranged marriages by well intentioned fathers to rich jerks? Abusive homes. No creative work outlets. Child sex slavery anyone? Being thought of as a less intelligent and therefore less important gender in comparison to men. How many freedoms will we lose in the name of protection and modesty? Should we really trust men to take care of and protect us?
Can submission work if it’s not voluntarily given by women, but demanded by men with punishment as a result of disobedience. How can we prevent society from going too far without Christ and grace? Is it even possible without Christ or are we better off being a feminist society?
I’m not ready to give answers to these questions, I’m probably not qualified, but it runs around in my mind and I thought I’d throw it out there to see what your thoughts are on the matter.
Tagged: Bible, Christ, Christian, Christian Marriage, Christianity, Delhi, God, India, Patriarchy, People, Relationships, Religion and Spirituality, Violence against women
” Being thought of as a less intelligent and therefore less important gender in comparison to men.”
Women are pretty important…. for sex. I would much rather do a woman than a man, but that’s probably the only thing I would choose a woman over a man for since women are really dumb and unintelligent. And not really important in the long run.
Haha, you’re going to scare away all of my readers.
The most dynamic societies were the extremely patriarchal pagan societies of Ancient Europe, North Africa, and Asia. Just look towards a more modern example, Japan. In the Nazi pamphlet I was reading in my spare time The Secret of Japan’s Strength, it said that Japan acquired an empire in only 80 years. Another dynamic non-Christian patriarchal society would be Nazi Germany a country close and dear to my heart because my glorious ancestors fought for the National Socialist cause in the War. In the words of my hero and god Herr Alfred Rosenberg, “Christianity and Marxism are two manifestations of the Jewish spirit”.
You Christians can take your dirty Semitic lies and shove them up your ass, you Untermenschen.
Sooooo, you’re saying the feminists have saved us from becoming like Nazi Germany?
Sis, in all honesty, if men decided that women were not to have rights, that would all end right now. Just look at the Islamic middle-east where they treat their women and children like slaves.
The Nazis would round up the feminists(most of whom are Jewish unsurprisingly) and send them to the gas.
Just an honest picture of what would happen.
Yes, it’s probably a bad question.. without Christ, without hope, there can’t be a good outcome no matter what kind of society we have.
Whoa Svar. I hope there is some other message there, albeit inscrutable. Free speech and all, but this ain’t the place for that kinda talk.
Without Christianity, what does evo-psych say? Something similar. In the absence of Christianity, acknowledging God, he still created with an order in mind. No, I don’t think women are to submit to men other than husband/father. There might be some social consideration but unearned allegiance is not granted outside those relationships. Of course, if your boss is male, submission is a given, within the realm of the work engaged.
Under dad or hubby, you carry a certain authority of that hlusehd. Additionally, you should be carrying the protection of that household. “If you disrespect my my wife or daughter, you disrespect me.”
Yes, I think God’s order has something to do with the answer.
“Whoa Svar. I hope there is some other message there, albeit inscrutable. Free speech and all, but this ain’t the place for that kinda talk.”
The other message is “Heil Hitler”.
Hahah, don’t worry CoffeeCrazed, I’m just messing with Sis.
Sis, I think you’re asking the wrong questions. Or maybe just for the wronf reasons.
If the idea is that god creared the universe, and then put men in it in his image, giving them a set of guidelines to live a satisfying/content life with the bible… then whether they believe or not those guidelines would still bring happiness.
If you dont believe in god, hen you believe in evolution. We evolved in patriarchal societies. Our bodies and minds evolved to reward us for adherence to those societies. Compliance would still bring happiness.
As to your ‘objections’ those are extremes. They are rationalizations brought about under a desire to find a reason to rebel. Even in the extreme countries you list they are never common. Also remember that, if your going by the bible OR by evolution, the men had expectations to fulfill in order to bring happiness to themselves and society, to break them by overcompensating as feminist teachings do today in the western world.
Maybe if there’s no Christ, there’s no hope anyway so it wouldn’t matter who the leaders were, we’d all just try to survive.
I know they’re extremes and I don’t like using fear to base solutions on anyway, I don’t think the extremes help us to find our answer either.
Great points!
Keep in mind another thing: modernity has nothing for the human soul, Even paganism is more fulfulling and actually tries to answer the profound questions that we ask. Christianity, Judaism, and (many/most)Pre-Christian Paganism are all oriented towards the Truth.
Those pagans of Japan were against Eugenics as pagans because they believed in the Divine origin of the Japanese race and were offended by being treated by the eugenicists as animals to be bred. The same objection that Christians have except that Christians believe in the Divine origin of all of man.
Just about anything is better than modernity which is the cancer of the soul.
I hadn’t considered a return to paganism, that sounds more promising than the law only.
No, I’m saying your extremes are unrealistic.
You’re using rationalizations to respond to logical questions with emotaional based responses in an effort to paint the situation bleaker than it is. I don’t know you well enough to know why – typical reasons are depression or stress in an effort to pass off responsibility for the response to something you SHOULD be taking in an effort to make it seem like an action you know you shouldn’t take is in fact the right action.
You’re making a really poor imitation of theoretical discussions and debates. Either accept it or don’t, but this lukewarm “I accept it and yet I don’t” type thing is…. vile. This is the only thing I’ve ever read of yours that elicits disgust. Stop.
Please read my post that is coming today..I plan on answering these doubts with some ideas I have.
I like your passion and honesty, don’t ever lose that.
Thanks for liking my Intellectual Cuties post, Sis. Not quite sure why you did, but thanks anyway. (I am an Australian. We do a lot of irony.)
In my opinion, women are not required to submit to men other than their husbands and fathers (while they are young).
It would be nice if women were a bit nice to men in general for what we do, but I suppose men should be nice to women in general for what you do.
I think women are, on the whole, less gifted intellectually than men. But there are many exceptions of course. Such as Catherine Pickstock.
I don’t have a good reason other than I did like it. it would be pretty impossible to submit to all men in general anyway, there are so many differing opinions on what we should be like, at least in our society.
I bristle just a bit at your intellectual comment..but remembering my college days in engineering I’d have to agree…the brilliant ones were always men. Women have other talents that nicely complement men and it’s unnecessary to compete intellectually.
Yes.
I hate to butt in into a discussion like this, but I found the comment that women are less intellectually gifted than men rather… unimportant. A brilliant mind will always be a brilliant mind, whether it belongs to a man or a woman.
(Another thing is that I don’t agree with that idea – I’ve seen and met too many superbly intelligent women for that
At my university (natural sciences and math), about 50% of the teachers are women, who are excellent scientists to boot. And I’d like to point out that among the students, the gals are more successful than men…)
I’ve actually been trying to figure out the whole hierarchy according to the Bible. While I’m quite clear on the familial hierarchy (and do not believe that the wife has to submit to all men, therefore the patriarchy model doesn’t exactly fit), I’m wondering about how the church hierarchy fits into the familial.
Case in point– say I believe the Bible says one thing, and I lead my family that way, but the Pastor believes otherwise. Am I voiding the protection I get from him/the church by going the other way? Should I be submitting?
Ideally you and your pastor should agree on the important things and the lesser important things shouldn’t matter as much. There are certain essentials of our faith that shouldn’t be compromised and if they are, then a serious discussion needs to occur between you and your pastor and might and should result in you leaving your church. There are other things that aren’t essential (like your perspective on the book of Revelations, or if you believe women should work or not) that it’s okay to disagree on.
Which is where I am, I guess. If I would rank doctrines most important (1) to least important (10), I would say that most of them are sub 5 with one that I don’t know whether it’s higher or lower than a 5.
The thing I’m puzzling over isn’t what to do about a Pastor as much as it’s how to process submission. Since a wife is to submit to a husband as the spiritual leader, unless he’s completely missing the Scripture, on areas that there could be disagreement she should support and follow him– correct?
So, in the same token, if I disagree on a 5-10 level issue with the Pastor, I know that I owe him respect not to sow discord in the church, but should I be following his viewpoint, even if I believe he’s wrong?
I don’t think I’m the right person to ask, it really depends on what the issue is. Maybe you should try to convince your pastor of your viewpoint and discuss it with him.
[...] I talked about how it’s hard to let men be our leaders in society, especially if they are not Christians. If this patriarchy thing grabbed hold of our country and [...]